Comments on: The church: “a veritable catastrophe for man in general”

By: Rick Ritchie

Rick Ritchie — Sun, 03 May 2009 03:25:41 +0000

I think that grace allows people a more clear-eyed view of where they are or have been. In moralistic systems, in order to have any hope, you have to be able to frame your own case in a good light. Forgiveness does away with that need. At least before God.

I ordered Ellul’s book after reading this post.

By: Carpe Cakem! � We are the failed and authentic witness, all of us

Carpe Cakem! � We are the failed and authentic witness, all of us — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:40:53 +0000

[...] John Halton posted an excellent passage on church history from philosopher Jacques Ellul today: How can it be said, then, that freedom exists only in Christ and only for those who confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? In spite of the experience of history, however, I do say this. Only in Christ and through Christians can authentic and undeviating freedom arise, take form, and spread in the world. [...]

By: Matt J.

Matt J. — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:33:13 +0000

That passage from Ellul is excellent. Thanks.

I just finished reading Charles William’s church history (The Descent of the Dove), and I was pleasantly surprised at how gracious he was with the various flawed leaders, Popes, reformers, etc. throughout the church’s life.

It’s such a contrast to what I learned in my homeschooling textbooks: (“the church was hosed until the Puritan’s came along”)

or heard preached on occasion: (“too bad Constantine ruined the church. We’ve been trying to get back there ever since…”)

and again in a church history class in college: (“all those losers back then were quenching the spirit, except for perhaps the Montanists, up until Azuza street”).

How much more humbling (and truthful) to say, “Yes, mistakes were made. But it was my own crew making them every time. And we continue to make them. But we’re still the people of Jesus Christ. He’s not going to let us down.”

By: John H

John H — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 09:12:47 +0000

Haydn: true. A problem ever since Paul wrote Romans 6. Though equally it is a good test of how faithfully one is preaching the gospel: if no-one could respond to your preaching by saying, "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound?", then you're doing it wrong. (See this great quote from Martyn Lloyd-Jones.)

By: Haydn

Haydn — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 02:48:06 +0000

Amen, brother. This is very true, and as contemporary people we need to avoid the trap of rubbishing those who went before us because we think that we have all the goods on truth.

But while I agree with the comment that “This enables us to measure the degree to which grace alone has made it the church of Jesus Christ and always sustained it as such”, I would also warn Christians not to use that as an excuse or a licence to go around sinning and wilfully disobeying God. SO many times I’ve heard Christians use this line to defend the sloth and abdication of responsibilities and it’s disgusting when it’s done. Yes, we’re saved by grace, but we’re called to walk in love, sin no more, and be a light to this world that attracts non-believers to the truth.